🎙️ Lenny's Podcast: Julie Zhuo

🎙️ Lenny's Podcast: Julie Zhuo

PODCAST INFORMATION

Lenny's Podcast: Product, Career, Growth
A Conversation with Julie Zhuo on Management, AI, and the Future of Work
Host: Lenny Rachitsky
Guest: Julie Zhuo (Former Head of Design for Facebook, author of "The Making of a Manager," founder of Sundial)
Approximately 1 hour and 36 minutes

🎧 Listen here.

HOOK

The skills that make someone an exceptional manager are precisely what will enable them to thrive in an AI-driven world where everyone must learn to direct intelligent agents toward meaningful outcomes.

ONE-SENTENCE TAKEAWAY

The future of work requires dissolving traditional role boundaries and embracing the mindset of a "builder" who leverages both human creativity and artificial intelligence to create value, while maintaining the timeless management principles of clarity, adaptability, and human connection.

SUMMARY

This episode features a profound conversation between host Lenny Rachitsky and returning guest Julie Zhuo, whose previous appearance on the podcast three years ago was its inaugural episode. Zhuo, former Head of Design for Facebook and author of the bestselling management book "The Making of a Manager," now founders Sundial, an AI-powered analytics company. This unique background gives her exceptional perspective on both traditional management at scale and the emerging AI-powered workplace.

The conversation begins by exploring the surprising parallels between effective management and working with AI systems. Zhuo explains that management fundamentally involves having a clear outcome, understanding your resources, and assembling the right mix of skills to achieve your goals. These same principles apply to working with AI agents, where you need clear objectives, an understanding of different AI models' strengths, and effective processes to combine them. This insight reveals that as AI becomes more integrated into workflows, more people will need to develop management skills to direct these intelligent systems effectively.

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the organizational flattening trend, where companies are reducing middle management and encouraging individual contributors to take on broader responsibilities. Zhuo shares how her company has eliminated certain roles, including product managers, to empower team members to develop more comprehensive skill sets. This approach forces engineers and other specialists to step outside their traditional lanes and develop product thinking, communication skills, and user empathy. While challenging initially, this investment in more well-rounded "builders" pays off in the long run through faster iteration and more empowered teams.

The conversation then shifts to data and analytics, a surprising focus for someone with Zhuo's design background. She explains her philosophy of "diagnose with data, treat with design," emphasizing that data helps identify problems and opportunities, but creative solutions still require human insight and design thinking. This perspective addresses the tension many designers feel with data-driven approaches, acknowledging that while metrics can't dictate solutions, they provide essential grounding in reality.

Regarding the changing role of managers in the AI era, Zhuo emphasizes that while management has always involved managing change, the rate of change is now accelerating dramatically. She introduces the metaphor of the willow tree (sturdy yet flexible) as the ideal approach for modern leadership. Managers must provide stability and clear direction while remaining adaptable to rapid technological shifts and helping their teams navigate uncertainty and fear about career evolution.

The episode also covers timeless management wisdom, including the importance of self-awareness, feedback as a daily practice rather than a periodic event, and creating win-win scenarios rather than adversarial relationships. Zhuo shares frameworks like "dimensionality" recognizing that everyone has strengths and weaknesses across infinite dimensions, and none define a person's worth. She emphasizes that effective managers must develop genuine conviction in their team's purpose, as authentic belief cannot be faked and is essential for inspiring others.

Throughout the conversation, several themes emerge: the blurring of traditional role distinctions, the accelerating pace of change, the enduring importance of human skills despite technological advancement, and the need for both clarity and adaptability in leadership. Zhuo's unique journey from design leadership to AI entrepreneurship provides a compelling backdrop for these insights, demonstrating how traditional management wisdom remains relevant even as the tools and organizational structures evolve.

The episode concludes with a lightning round where Zhuo recommends books including "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and "Conscious Business," shares personal AI projects like creating a talking raccoon toy for her son, and offers contrarian wisdom about finding "infinity in every direction" the idea that richness and depth can be found in any experience if we develop the skills to perceive it.

INSIGHTS

• Management skills are becoming more valuable, not less, in an AI-driven world because effectively directing AI agents requires the same core competencies as managing human teams: clear goal-setting, understanding resource strengths, and designing effective processes.
• Organizations are flattening not just to reduce costs but because AI empowers individual contributors to perform tasks that previously required specialized roles, enabling smaller, more agile teams where everyone becomes a "builder."
• The most effective approach to data in product development is to "diagnose with data and treat with design" using data to identify problems and opportunities while relying on human creativity and design thinking to develop solutions.
• Modern management requires being "sturdy while being flexible" like a willow tree; providing stability and clear direction while remaining adaptable to rapid change and helping teams navigate uncertainty.
• Feedback should be a daily practice rather than a periodic event, as teams that improve 1% every week will dramatically outperform those that improve 1% monthly, regardless of starting point.
• The concept of "dimensionality" helps managers and team members recognize that strengths and weaknesses exist across infinite dimensions, and none define a person's worth, enabling more objective conversations about growth areas.
• AI is transforming not just how we work but how we learn, with personalized AI tutors capable of adapting to individual learning styles and dramatically accelerating skill acquisition.
• The most valuable skill for the future may be emotional regulation and self-awareness, as our fundamental human biology remains unchanged even as our tools and environment evolve rapidly.
• Creating win-win scenarios rather than adversarial relationships is essential for effective management, particularly in difficult situations like letting someone go, which can be framed as helping them find a better fit rather than a punitive action.
• Authentic conviction in a team's purpose cannot be faked and is essential for effective leadership; managers must do the work to genuinely understand and believe in their direction rather than merely executing orders from above.

FRAMEWORKS & MODELS

The Management-AI Parallels Framework

Julie Zhuo outlines how traditional management principles directly apply to working with AI systems. The framework consists of three core components:

The significance of this framework is that it demystifies working with AI by connecting it to familiar management concepts, making the transition less daunting and highlighting transferable skills.

Diagnose With Data, Treat With Design

This framework provides a balanced approach to data-informed product development:

This framework is significant because it resolves the tension between data-driven and design-led approaches, showing how they can work together rather than compete.

Dimensionality Framework

This conceptual model helps people develop a healthier relationship with feedback and personal growth:

This framework is significant because it helps people separate their identity from their capabilities, making growth feel less threatening and feedback more constructive.

The Willow Tree Metaphor for Modern Management

This metaphor describes the ideal approach to leadership in times of rapid change:

This metaphor is significant because it captures the essential tension in modern leadership and provides a memorable image of how to navigate it successfully.

Win-Win Framework for Difficult Conversations

This approach transforms potentially adversarial situations into collaborative problem-solving:

This framework is significant because it reduces defensiveness and resistance, making difficult conversations more productive and preserving relationships even when delivering bad news.

QUOTES

"We're seeing this kind of flattening of orgs. Everyone's becoming an IC again. It used to be, okay, I don't have the skills to do 10 different jobs, but now with AI allows me to do many of those jobs myself. We need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles and call ourselves builders. I'd love for us to get to the world where that's the title." - Julie Zhuo
This quote captures the central thesis about organizational evolution in the AI era, highlighting how technology enables individual contributors to take on broader responsibilities and the need to move beyond traditional role definitions.

"Management is still really critical. You have a northstar. You have a vision and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done. Used to be people, but now it's basically models and different models have different strengths. You kind of have to assemble the adventures so that you can use the right tools for the right purposes." - Julie Zhuo
This quote establishes the fundamental parallel between traditional management and AI direction, emphasizing that the core principles remain relevant even as the nature of resources changes.

"What do you feel is the biggest change in the role in life of a manager these days? It's always been manager's job to manage change. I just think the rate of change is accelerating. Today management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible. So I think about this metaphor a lot of the willow tree. It can survive a lot of storms, disasters, etc. But it's also very flexible." - Julie Zhuo
This quote introduces the willow tree metaphor that becomes a recurring theme throughout the episode, perfectly capturing the dual challenge modern managers face in providing stability while remaining adaptable.

"You want to diagnose with data and treat with design. Data is not a tool that's going to tell you what you should build. I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point. Traditionally things just didn't grow that fast. These companies are totally getting by on just good instincts and good vibes. But what always happens is eventually things stop growing." - Julie Zhuo
This quote encapsulates Zhuo's balanced approach to data and design, acknowledging the limitations of data while highlighting its value in identifying problems before they become crises.

"I also just saw a stat Google let go of so many of their middle managers." - Lenny Rachitsky
This quote highlights the broader industry trend of organizational flattening that provides context for the discussion about evolving management structures and the changing nature of work in technology companies.

"Every strength is its own weakness and every weakness is a strength. There's no such thing as you're going to somehow, you know, get every dimension to be 100%." - Julie Zhuo
This quote introduces the dimensionality framework that helps people develop a healthier relationship with their strengths and weaknesses, making personal growth less threatening.

"Feedback really in my mind ideally should be like a daily practice because the thing that matters for us in the long run as a team is how quickly are we getting better." - Julie Zhuo
This quote emphasizes the importance of continuous feedback rather than treating it as a periodic event, highlighting how small improvements compound over time.

"I believe that there's infinity in every direction." - Julie Zhuo
This contrarian statement captures Zhuo's philosophical approach to finding richness and depth in any experience, representing a mindset that helps people remain engaged and find value even in challenging circumstances.

"Emotional regulation is still really, really, really important. That's probably the thing that I think about the most in terms of what I want my kids to learn." - Julie Zhuo
This quote highlights what Zhuo considers the most essential skill for the future, emphasizing that despite technological change, our fundamental human nature remains the same and self-awareness is becoming more valuable, not less.

HABITS

Develop Clear Outcome Definition

Practice translating vague goals into specific, measurable success criteria before engaging with AI tools or directing team members. This habit involves asking "What does success look like concretely?" and "How will we know unequivocally if we've achieved our objective?" Implement this by writing down success metrics before starting any project, and refine them through discussion with stakeholders until they are unambiguous.

Cultivate Resource Awareness

Build the habit of assessing the strengths and limitations of both human team members and AI tools before assigning tasks. For AI tools, this means experimenting with different models for various types of work and developing intuition about which performs best in different contexts. For team members, this involves regular check-ins about their skills, interests, and growth areas. Create a personal "resource map" that documents the capabilities of your available tools and team members.

Embrace the Builder Mindset

Dissolve traditional role boundaries by developing habits that cross disciplinary lines. Engineers should practice product thinking, designers should learn basic data analysis, and everyone should experiment with adjacent skills. Implement this by taking on small projects outside your core expertise, using AI tools to bridge knowledge gaps, and seeking feedback from specialists in other disciplines. Set a monthly goal to learn and apply one skill from another functional area.

Practice Daily Feedback

Transform feedback from a periodic event into a daily habit by creating structured opportunities for exchange. This could include ending each day with a brief reflection on what worked well and what could be improved, or establishing reciprocal feedback partnerships with colleagues. The key is to normalize giving and receiving small, actionable feedback regularly rather than saving it for formal reviews. Use the "opt-in" approach by explicitly agreeing with team members to exchange feedback freely.

Balance Data and Design Intuition

Develop the habit of alternating between data analysis and creative thinking in your product development process. When facing a problem, first gather data to understand the situation objectively, then step away from the metrics to brainstorm creative solutions, and finally return to data to evaluate your ideas. Implement this by scheduling separate "data diagnosis" and "design treatment" sessions in your project timeline, ensuring both approaches receive dedicated attention.

Cultivate Sturdy Flexibility

Practice the willow tree approach to leadership by developing habits that build both stability and adaptability. For sturdiness, create and communicate clear principles and priorities that remain consistent amid change. For flexibility, regularly question your assumptions and experiment with new approaches. Implement this by establishing personal "core principles" that guide your decisions while also scheduling monthly "what if" sessions to explore alternative approaches and challenge your thinking.

Develop Dimensional Self-Awareness

Build the habit of viewing yourself through the lens of infinite dimensions rather than identifying with specific strengths or weaknesses. When receiving feedback, practice separating the specific behavior or skill being discussed from your overall sense of worth. Implement this by keeping a "dimensional journal" that tracks your performance across different skills and attributes, noting both strengths and areas for improvement without judgment.

Create Win-Win Scenarios

Develop the habit of looking for mutually beneficial solutions in all interactions, especially difficult conversations. Before addressing a problem, ask yourself "How can this outcome work well for everyone involved?" Implement this by reframing challenges as collaborative problem-solving opportunities rather than adversarial situations, and explicitly seeking input from all stakeholders on how to create positive outcomes for everyone.

Prioritize Emotional Regulation

Build habits that strengthen your ability to recognize and manage your emotional states, especially amid rapid change. This could include regular mindfulness practices, journaling about emotional responses, or developing a personal "emotional vocabulary" to better articulate your feelings. Implement this by scheduling brief check-ins with yourself throughout the day to assess your emotional state and practicing techniques to return to equilibrium when feeling stressed or overwhelmed.

Engage in Continuous Learning

Leverage AI tools to accelerate your learning across new domains. Develop the habit of identifying knowledge gaps and using AI tutors to fill them efficiently. Implement this by creating personalized learning plans with AI assistance, setting aside dedicated time for skill development, and using AI to explain concepts in ways that match your learning style. Test your understanding by teaching concepts back to the AI and receiving feedback on your explanations.

REFERENCES

"The Making of a Manager" by Julie Zhuo

Zhuo's bestselling management book forms a foundation for much of the conversation in the episode. She mentions that the book is being re-released in paperback with two additional chapters: one on managing remotely and another on managing in difficult change scenarios or downturns. The book's core principles about effective management inform many of the frameworks discussed throughout the episode.

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert M. Pirsig

Zhuo recommends this classic philosophical novel as one of her most frequently recommended books. She mentions that her philosophy around quality and dynamic change draws heavily from concepts in this book. The novel explores the metaphysics of quality and the integration of rational and intuitive ways of thinking, themes that resonate with Zhuo's balanced approach to data and design.

"Conscious Business" by Fred Kofman

Zhuo describes this as her favorite management book, even above her own. She mentions that if she had read it before writing her book, she might not have written "The Making of a Manager." The book covers concepts like win-win scenarios, being a player rather than a victim, and aligning work with personal values. Zhuo notes that while the cover and first chapter might seem corporate, the book contains valuable examples and insights for management.

"Good Inside" by Dr. Becky Kennedy

This parenting book is recommended by Zhuo not just for parents but for anyone interested in relationships. She notes that many concepts from parenting books apply equally to management and team leadership. The book's focus on being "sturdy" as a parent connects to Zhuo's willow tree metaphor for management, emphasizing strength combined with flexibility.

Meta (formerly Facebook)

Zhuo's experience as Head of Design for the Facebook app provides context for much of her management wisdom. She mentions managing the design for an app used by over 3 billion people, giving her perspective on management at scale. Her experience at Meta informs her understanding of traditional organizational structures and how they're evolving.

Sundial

Zhuo's current company, an AI-powered analyst used by companies like OpenAI, Gamma, and Character AI, represents her transition from design leadership to AI entrepreneurship. The company's focus on automating data analysis reflects her philosophy of diagnosing with data and treating with design. Her experience founding and leading this startup provides firsthand insight into the flattening of organizations and the changing nature of work in AI-driven companies.

The Looking Glass Newsletter

Zhuo's newsletter, which inspired Lenny to start his own newsletter and eventually this podcast, is mentioned as a key influence. The newsletter represents Zhuo's long-form thinking on product, leadership, and AI topics. It serves as a platform where she shares many of the frameworks and insights discussed in the episode.

Management Literature and Research

While not citing specific studies, the conversation draws on established management literature and research. Zhuo references concepts like the Dunning-Kruger effect when discussing feedback and self-perception, and mentions traditional management principles that remain relevant despite technological change. The discussion of organizational flattening trends references observable industry patterns, including Google's reduction of middle managers.

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